A Tale of Two Dashboards

[00:00] Welcome to lunch hour legal marketing. I am Conrad Somme from mockingbird, and I am right handed, although I play hockey left handed, which is really weird. I just always have.
[00:11] Today we're going to talk about a client that mockingbird lost, and I think there are systemic reasons to that in the way there's a lesson in here in the way that
[00:23] law firms and agencies are working off of two different scorecards when it comes to the reporting of their marketing success or failures.
[00:34] We're going to get deep into that with me and ghee later on in the segment.
[00:38] Music!
[00:53] Here's my legal talk network!
[01:14] We lost the client this week. I'm very sorry.
[01:19] And I'm not sure I'm very sorry. It's may have been a good departure. Having said that, we made a mistake on this account, and the client also made a mistake on this account.
[01:35] I'm going to read back and forth of emails from you and secretly, as if you're an attorney, I would like you to figure out the mistakes that I made and the mistakes that the client made.
[01:51] This is Monday, email, I get from, oh, more in, we work with a fractional CMO in this instance. So we have a fractional CMO, we have a client, we have the agency content.
[02:04] And the reason I'm sharing this with everyone is, I want you to think about how you manage your agencies and how your agencies are managing their clients, you the client, because this is a relationship gone poorly, very quickly.
[02:17] And that's what I was about to ask you, how was your relationship with this fractional CMO?
[02:23] The fractional CMO is great, great. And so I think one of the issues that you have with fractional CMO, especially as the agency, it is incumbent upon us, we're brought into a lot of law firms through a fractional CMO.
[02:36] It is incumbent upon us to work primarily with the fractional CMO. This is basic relationships stuff. I don't want to go over her head, I don't want to go around, I don't want to talk directly to the client without them involved, like that is that is bad relationship management.
[02:55] But the flip side in this is you have less direct contact with the primary stakeholder, right? My primary stakeholder is the fractional CMO, and our job is to make him or her look amazing.
[03:08] And, and without any relationship with the law firm client, you're at risk of the relationship with the fractional CMO and the client. So, that's that's always the challenge.
[03:21] But yeah, it is difficult. So, you know, we tend to have a, I'll give you another, and I will not name the other fractional CMO.
[03:32] We, it is, it is always difficult when you have three people in a relationship, right? That's, yeah, so anyway, this is good relationship with fractional CMO, but but I will tell you this, the other thing is lots of, it is easy for the fractional CMO.
[03:51] In order to try to demonstrate a level of value to badmouth vendors. So, that is also a pit you can find yourself in. This is not the case here, although we certainly had that last week as well.
[04:04] But let me, so let me, let me get down to it. Hey guys, I just wanted to put something on your radar.
[04:11] Bill, not his real name, called me this morning, and he's concerned about aid performance. He's at the point of considering options.
[04:22] Give me a ring when I can, when you can, and I can brief you.
[04:25] Okay, pause.
[04:27] Go.
[04:28] What, how is Bill measuring the effectiveness of his paid meat and management? Is he managing to cost for clients, cost for consultation, number of clients, number of consultations.
[04:42] That is, that is a great question.
[04:46] Okay, don't answer it then.
[04:48] I'm going to answer your question for you.
[04:50] He is measuring it in terms of new clients, not cost for consultation. He wants new clients out of this.
[04:56] Regardless of cost.
[05:00] He's got to have this.
[05:02] There's probably a cost for client associated with this.
[05:06] Yeah, there's probably a cost for clients.
[05:08] Okay. So, all the response, we go back and look at the reporting.
[05:13] And this was, this felt very out of the blue because when I got my paper click lead to look at this, he's like, this is one of our best accounts.
[05:22] I don't understand this.
[05:24] This is a good pause again.
[05:26] How is your best pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, pay, see lead to finding success.
[05:30] That is, that is a great question.
[05:34] So,
[05:37] What we have and, and you're getting down to where the mistakes are, what we have is a cost per lead.
[05:48] Okay, we do not have a cost per consultation.
[05:51] We do not have a cost per client.
[05:53] We have a cost per lead.
[05:55] Has that subject been broached with them in the past?
[05:59] I don't know because again, CMO to like, I don't know where that this kind of breaks down, right?
[06:06] But you're right in identifying the missing piece, which is alignment between.
[06:12] Client wants cost per client.
[06:14] We have data on cost per lead, right?
[06:17] Those two things are missing each other.
[06:20] So what were the more emails, more emails for it?
[06:23] Yeah, I'll give you, I'll give you more emails.
[06:26] But I'm going to give you the monthly performance and why we were very surprised.
[06:32] That, you might, my paper, click people were like, this should be working.
[06:37] Amazingly well.
[06:39] So I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll start.
[06:41] You hit, you, you hit cost per lead goals.
[06:45] But those leads weren't turning for one reason or another didn't turn into clients.
[06:48] That is a great guess and not necessarily accurate.
[06:53] Okay.
[06:55] Okay, so I'll give you the numbers.
[06:58] We, we spent eleven and a half thousand dollars.
[07:00] Okay.
[07:01] We generated sixty four leads, a cost per lead of a hundred and eighty one dollars.
[07:06] Forty percent of the lead and this is non-branded.
[07:09] This is not branded queries.
[07:11] This is non-organized.
[07:13] Paper click search ads only, right?
[07:15] That's good. Those are those are very good numbers if you're, well, they're very good numbers if they're qualified.
[07:21] That's right. Very good. So and and and 40% lead rate.
[07:27] So if we, if we got to collect 40% of the time, which is very over the top, like all of these numbers would trend at the extreme end of our performance for these numbers.
[07:40] Conrad, we are always talking about converting more leads in our CRM.
[07:47] One of my favorite products that does that is LaMatics.
[07:50] Their lead scoring does a great job of using AI to separate great leads from good leads.
[07:56] So you can follow up with them individually in different methods.
[07:59] In fact, even leads that you might initially identify as low quality can be enriched and turned into quality leads automatically with AI and
[08:09] LaMatics.
[08:10] So check them out, LaMatics.com and let Matt Speagle know, getting Conrad sent you there.
[08:18] So we were, we were a little fibergast it.
[08:21] We had already a meeting, this is Monday, we had a meeting set up for yesterday Wednesday to go over this information.
[08:29] Okay.
[08:31] So we send all the data that I showed with you back to the fractional CMO.
[08:36] I give him a call, we go over the data, this looks really good, blah, blah, blah, blah.
[08:41] That is, that was that email came in at 10, 22, we probably got back to him by one o'clock.
[08:48] Okay, pause you there.
[08:50] You may have already answered this, but I'm curious.
[08:53] Yeah.
[08:55] What was the fractional CMO's position on the reporting, like did the fractional CMO know like, hey, for whatever reasons we're looking at cost per client and
[09:06] clients over here and you guys are reporting on leads to that come up at that point or not really.
[09:11] I don't think, no, because we had a call on Wednesday to review all of this.
[09:16] Like, and that was a preschool call that wasn't a, it wasn't a reactive call.
[09:21] Okay.
[09:23] So that was around one o'clock.
[09:25] 231, we got from Bill that I call him bill before.
[09:29] Or a termination notice that we're terminating and because I don't believe in long term contracts.
[09:37] We, that's fine, we're going to terminate, we're going to leave this this client with what we call it the white glove treatment.
[09:45] I want people leaving feeling like they have made a mistake.
[09:48] Yep.
[09:50] And.
[09:54] This is the first time we've kind of had this direct client contact with the client.
[09:59] Uh, well.
[10:00] we're actually going around our our our CMOs, although he's copied on this. I want to make sure
[10:07] you have all the data is making form decision. We're happy to discuss the early performance
[10:10] of the campaign and we'd like to preserve our relationship. Early results for the March
[10:15] ad campaign show cost-related $181 for non-branded search. The call rail phone call showing first-time
[10:21] callers associated with Google ads campaign is attached. If you're open to a conversation,
[10:26] please let us know what time works for you over the next couple of days.
[10:30] Reply is I don't wish to discuss further cost-prelead is pointless to your point,
[10:35] G. We have not signed a single case that can be attributed to your services since you took over.
[10:39] No one seems to care. Okay, so you're just writing this a bit. Yeah, okay. Unfinished. To be clear,
[10:47] this is not an attribution problem. I know where every case I have signed since two one came from
[10:53] and none of them were from digital marketing efforts. Moreover, nothing we bring to your
[10:57] attention gets addressed in a timely manner. It's at all. This has been an all-around disaster's experience.
[11:05] Can you figure out what my mistake and what the clients mistake is?
[11:14] Well, I don't know if I don't know if it's your mistake. This is where I was going earlier when I keep
[11:19] picking at the defining success and advanced conversation. That's a me as the root of this
[11:26] mistake. Now, why that mistake happened? That's a question. Where I was going is because this is what we
[11:32] see a lot. We'll have that conversation. We'll be like, you know, look, we'd love to manage media to
[11:39] one of the leads usually. I think it's the best one. Some people want to do to clients.
[11:43] My view is, especially in a PI, if it's a PI client, I guess I think it's a PI client. Yeah.
[11:51] PI client, if I'm sending you, if marketing is generating leads, we're managing media
[11:58] to leads that are wanted. That implies that there's a consultation there because someone at the
[12:04] firm had a term that's wanted. Then I think you're in good shape. Frankly, we need a lot of pushback,
[12:12] clients for a variety of reasons, date lack of data infrastructure, lack of process,
[12:15] lack of intake, sophistication, and we try to work with them. In order for us to manage this media,
[12:23] you need to send signal back to us that this was a wanted lead. There's a variety of ways we can do that,
[12:29] but you have to do that. That was the first place that I go. Now, again, you can give me the back
[12:36] story here, but it sounded like either that conversation wasn't had or was had and we never
[12:44] got on the same page with client things to success and what you think is success.
[12:51] Now, the other thing, getting deeper into the weeds here for that last part, and he claims that it's not an
[12:57] attribution issue, but it seems to me that there's maybe something, something's missed between,
[13:08] if your signals are all positive on the lead front and his signals are zero cases and I know where
[13:18] everything is coming from. That sounds like maybe from his perspective, there's not an attribution
[13:22] problem, but there's something going on with attribution likely. To go O4, whatever number you
[13:27] had put out there, things extremely unlikely. Right. So, well, one more thing it could be, yeah, one more thing
[13:34] could be, it could be lying to you. They could be really bad at intake and missing calls, but you said
[13:41] they'd get you game first time callers, so their intake process could be broken. Yeah, yep. So,
[13:48] for me, I look at this, I was like, nothing came from digital marketing. There wasn't a single person
[13:54] who knew about your firm and looked, looked them up on Google Business profile and that trickled into your,
[13:59] I mean, this is all digital marketing, right? Well, we were talking about paper clicked specifically.
[14:04] He's nothing's happening from digital, that does not ring true. And so, I think you are correct.
[14:11] The key here is the wanted leads and I always talk about this as consultations on their
[14:18] different ways to kind of look at this, but the key here is the wanted leads and and us not being on the
[14:28] same page. The other thing, Guy, that I think was the clients mistake. This is a very hasty response.
[14:38] This was a campaign that had been on for six weeks. We had a call scale two days later.
[14:51] And this was a hasty, I don't want to talk to you response. These things do take time and you do need
[14:56] actually time to look at them. And if we had taken the time, I think if the client had taken the time,
[15:02] we would have learned something on our meeting that didn't happen on Wednesday.
[15:08] But you are correct. So what what what our response was, Guy, and an armistake,
[15:14] this is our mistake here is the client was looking at his numbers, his dashboard, what he believed to be
[15:25] the source of truth. And we were looking at our dashboard and I, I am convinced that this is going to be a
[15:31] fundamental shift in the agency world over the next 12 months, if not faster. The, the adage goes
[15:38] the man who has to watch never knows what time it is. And this is exactly what happened here. He's looking at
[15:43] his dashboard, seeing garbage. We're looking at our dashboard, seeing gold. And there's no, and the
[15:52] myth is there's no communication between the two. This is exacerbated by having a third party CMO
[15:59] involved in the mix. Right. Um, I think that becomes problematic.
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[16:41] certain this is our mistake is we actually listened to those 64 calls. Um, is a miserable, I will tell you
[16:50] this. If any of you thinks taking intake calls for personal injury firms is an easy job. You
[16:56] are sorely mistaken. It is depressing to listen to those calls. And then the reason I say this is because
[17:03] I listen to many of them. Um, of those calls, we had 27 that we believed to be good qualified leads.
[17:15] And the likelihood that you go over 27. Um, it's just not the case. Um, and so that's, but but like,
[17:23] we never had that time to have that conversation, right, and that that's the best question for you.
[17:30] So you, um, you heard the intake. How was the intake on those? It takes good. Yeah, and the port like that wasn't
[17:38] it. It wasn't an intake problem. It was not an intake problem. And so this is a different get.
[17:42] Yeah, it's a different get. Oh, running into it. And they were both good, right? Like, and, and, and, and it's painful
[17:51] to listen to these intake calls, right? Shouldn't the CMO be bridging the gap? Nick worker great question.
[17:59] I believe the answer to that question is yes, right? And I believe that we should be working closer
[18:08] whether you're working through a CMO, who's fractional or otherwise, but the gap that a really good CMO,
[18:16] who, who should have access to, and I don't want to throw the CMOs into the bus, but like, who should have access?
[18:23] And who should be reading off both of the watches, right? A really good CMO should be reading off both of the
[18:28] watches and understanding. I, I've said this before, I think it really good CMO operations person,
[18:34] remember that might be needs to be listening in on those calls on the regular and finding where we have
[18:39] problems and finding where we're doing. And, and this should not have been a surprise, right? And so I do think,
[18:46] Nick, to your point, that's part of it. And it gets, it gets difficult, right? You've got the agency. You've got a client who's,
[18:53] you know, clearly, short-fused, but it is, it is the importance of, of sitting and reading off that same
[19:02] watch. And I think that's, well, I think what you're going to see, my meta point here is,
[19:07] I would encourage law firms listening to this and any agencies who hear this to as much as you possibly
[19:13] can work off of the same watch. And it is, it really is the client's watch, as opposed to the agency's watch,
[19:23] because agencies aren't notorious for up into the right grass that look happy. Yeah, no way, bro. It's all about
[19:28] visibility index and AI. AI prompt tracking. Well, so, so hold on, here, I mean, let me
[19:37] talk about the two uses of AI that we had in, in, in this that I would love to actually get a little bit more
[19:43] visibility. The first is the, um,
[19:54] callrail has a score, a scoring mechanism, right? It's a lead scoring mechanism.
[20:00] Um, and that's an easy way is good. It's only as good as you shape it. You got to teach it what you want. You have to teach it what you want, et cetera. But like there's there's and and so in this case, because it was your point.
[20:16] Well, to your point that you the watch.
[20:19] If you if is the firm tracking that watch or they say, are they feeding back? Like say, these are these are the wanted leads. So so that that had not happened either, right?
[20:33] That that's that's a me is the biggest issue, right? Because you you you never you really never got to put out my definition of wanted lead.
[20:42] You know the firms thing this is a case we want that's exactly right. That's exactly right. And and and if you know that and know where that came from and that where that came from is a direct response channel like paper click. You don't have the conversations. Right.
[20:57] That's a failure on the firm as well as the as as as us.
[21:02] I mean, hopefully the you know, and this is we not surprisingly, we live this with our clients and clients a lot and if it is not a new story, right?
[21:14] We've invested a lot of resources in trying to be as platform agnostic as we possibly can and provide as much insight from you know an attribution and business metric standpoints we possibly can.
[21:27] So we built this whole thing we build a whole thing that helps facilitate that so that no matter what CRM you're on and no matter what.
[21:35] However, you're you know, even if it's spreadsheets, we can we can figure out a way to stitch it all together. So we've we've done that and it's a lot of work.
[21:43] And that does not work when you have a firm that does not want to share that information.
[21:47] That's right. So so let me more leads right. So this is where I'm going with all this is we spent all this.
[21:54] We spent all this time in money building this thing to to solve this issue because we're right there with your same watch and it's got to be a collaborative and and really it has to ultimately.
[22:06] If you're going to optimize and manage media do whatever to want to leads.
[22:13] That required that want needs to be defined by the firm not by the agency for and that requires participation and so to your point so we'll have that conversation at the get go.
[22:24] Issue one is is with like what you said they'll be like, I'm about why would I share that with you.
[22:29] And so then we're so so when we get that when we get that issue we're kind of put into we're forced into a corner here's our choices you tell me what you think is the right choice option one is is that okay, let's fall back on some other leading metric now we're on the same what anymore like cost per lead cost per lead or.
[22:48] God forbid traffic or.
[22:51] The ability to first time call yeah.
[22:54] Visibility so or we can say no we're not going to work with you because we know where this is going to go you're going to measure by something that we're you know you're hiding the ball.
[23:03] So we don't even know what the metric is we're going to do the best we came with our you are proxy things that we can for one of the leads.
[23:09] And we're going to report on those leading indicators for you and we know that over some period of time because we're not going to be able to directly tell you.
[23:18] That these wanted leads came from these activities you're going to shop around grass even if you're happy with the city services good.
[23:27] You're going to be like I just feel like the grass is greener somewhere else you're never going to get out of that quagmire and so what do we see when we go to conferences and we talk to our worthy rivals and our friends.
[23:36] It's the same musical chairs the mirror go round of these firms where they're like.
[23:40] I'm not sure in the data I want to think I go out and I spend money with the agency doesn't work after extra amount of time try the next one right second one here's the second one though.
[23:50] So I didn't give you a chance to respond where you I mean you you take those clients right if they won't share do you take them or now.
[23:57] Yeah, we do take them because and I'll tell you why.
[24:01] That's what the market wants.
[24:04] Well there's there's two good reasons for this number one we have best practices across our other clients for whom we do share that like we know we can do a good.
[24:13] Job right like I like it's not like we're walking completely blind and that this is one of the assets that you get with working with with a with a firm that works only with legal right they know they we're 85% of the way to having a really successful MBA campaign just because we've done this forever.
[24:30] So I know we can deliver something fairly good unless unless.
[24:35] The clients like we're of those MBA leads world we only want x y and z that we never told you.
[24:41] So yeah I mean then you have yes so.
[24:46] It's not perfect but like we will take the other thing and and this is maybe me being defensive but like.
[24:53] Most people.
[24:55] Most business owners.
[24:58] Would have that call like hey things aren't going great let's have that conversation and then you can have this conversation and and I and I think nine times out of ten.
[25:10] We really trying to sit on the same side of the desk and find people that we saw on the same side of the desk with and if we're sitting on the same side of the desk that's fine this is a clearly an example of where we were not on the same side of the desk.
[25:22] I'll tell you the outside of the more common one that we see because I think a lot of a lot of the lawyers we talk to.
[25:28] Especially if there's sophisticated in their of market you know the multi office and doing a while.
[25:34] They're like yeah totally like we want to be on the same page with what the KPIs are.
[25:40] We want to hold you accountable we want to be accountable you want to hold as accountable for those we understand that requires the partnership to sharing.
[25:47] Where we run into a real challenge is where they philosophically agree but they don't have.
[25:58] The processes or the training or the team bandwidth the roles or there's a there's a data infrastructure issue that they have that they just.
[26:12] They think they conceptually agree but but they're like we were like hey you haven't been updating the lead records what's going on.
[26:21] So and so is out yesterday okay so now you've got a week of unupdated lead records and so and you know or you've got.
[26:30] Approvals that are held up or you've got someone they got tinkerers that like to go in there and do stuff to their site and do stuff to.
[26:40] They're ad campaigns and those are the ones that are a trick because you know that they're they're Sabbath you know it's like going to the doctor and being like hey I want this medicine the doctor's trying to tell you anything so they're medicine and you're like no give me this medicine and you're like cognitively they they they they know it but they just can't.
[26:59] Stop getting in their own way and so we see that a ton.
[27:04] I think there's less excuses for that.
[27:08] I agree I agree I don't I don't I'm not big on the excuses my thing is the same question that was like what do you do right so you've got what can an easy one.
[27:17] Get this client they're with you on all this stuff and they're like we got an 80% or 20% miss call rate.
[27:25] And so you're like you need to fix that and they're like we know.
[27:29] And then a year goes by and they're 20% miss call rate and they're you know so again I you still take them as a client they're already a client.
[27:39] But there's but they're driving so much waste up that you know cost you're you're if you're measuring to cost per wanted lead it's going to be higher because they're missing 100% so but this is where like I view our role does not stop until.
[27:54] The contract has been signed and so if we have the miss call the miss call rate is actually one of the few things that is the easiest to solve because.
[28:05] You go show a business owner they spend a hundred forty three dollars on this click and no one answered the goddamn phone right like that starts to get solved fairly quickly you I the other thing that we did and I we did this is the whole genesis of my.
[28:18] Fascination and obsession with benchmarking we showed this is a while ago we showed all of our clients we just plotted everything out.
[28:29] This is this is where you fall on our miss call rate continuum and the ones that were in the bottom 20% we fixed that very quickly because like.
[28:37] You see the money just like burning and and you hate being below average and that I if you go back to some of the stuff that you and I used to talk about before if you think.
[28:50] If you know what your phone call answer rate is it'll piss you off and you will be above average if you don't know what it is you think you will you will think that you're doing a great job and you won't do anything about it like that is that is they I've just watched this play out over and over and over again.
[29:07] Do you had you have an issue with the.
[29:11] Consistency in lead working nurturing like updating records moving through pipeline.
[29:19] Do you see I think I really.
[29:26] I will say yes.
[29:29] I don't I couldn't but I couldn't plot those out on across my clients right and I think I'm going to go back to this is an old Harlem showing your point.
[29:41] Most of what we report on on talk and talk about is the things that we get you got this many clients you got you you're talking about the things that we want and.
[29:51] The real important piece of this is the flip on that which is to look at the things that you didn't win so I will give two examples of.
[30:00] of what that should look like. Number one, we, I think we've talked about speed AI here, but like
[30:05] speed AI was put out by the Haskins brothers and it's essentially a tool that'll be like in real time,
[30:14] hey, it looks like this was a good lead that has just walked out the door. You should do something
[30:19] about it. So it's an escalation and it's immediate escalation and it's an evaluation lead scoring,
[30:24] which I think is super, super valuable. And I would call you totally unrelated to this. I just heard
[30:29] another story about a lead being saved by speed AI. Yeah, so I check them out, like don't
[30:35] hire the Haskins brothers for your marketing for God's Sakes, but boy, boy, the cause of the speed
[30:40] AI is great. Yeah, but the other part of that key is the firms that I see. Again, this goes back to my
[30:55] phone call, knowing a phone call number will piss you off. The firms that I see doing the best are the
[31:01] ones that have someone in charge of understanding all the stuff that came in and all the stuff that's
[31:09] so from where's the gap between what came into intake management software that is qualified and what
[31:15] turned into matters. And that person is obsessed with all the stuff that falls out. That is the magic of a
[31:24] great CMO that or CO, and it doesn't matter what the title is. Somebody, somebody do somebody.
[31:32] If somebody is focused on that, your firm is winning. Right, your firm is going to identify where the
[31:38] leaks are. No, absolutely. And again, that's primarily that's the piece that we have tried to
[31:47] to connect so that we don't get all the way to practice management, but we get to CRM for sure and
[31:54] you should be managing to my opinion, you should be managed to sign retainers in your CRM.
[31:58] Yeah, and by the way, I don't think we should be in practice management. I do accept for signed retainer,
[32:07] which really should live in your intake management software. The only thing that's something we
[32:12] I agree with you, we're not in practice management, but I guess the only but you can handle this.
[32:18] You can do this in CRM, too, but sometimes the ways that the systems are set up,
[32:24] there's some data you might want to extract at the end of a matter to push back to marketing.
[32:30] So like, if you only capture buildings, like say you're a billable firm and you only capture buildings
[32:36] and you're practiced management, you'll not in your CRM. You want to pipe that back so you can do things like,
[32:40] say, all right, don't say it, I don't say it, but I think measuring lifetime value of clients versus
[32:50] acquisition costs is a positive thing. And the other one that I would pull out would be customer satisfaction,
[33:01] right, maybe something like that, but like I think it is actually very important to get some
[33:08] signal around happiness of a given client to determine whether or not you are going to go out of your
[33:14] way to stay in front of them for the rest of their lives or if you wanted to move on and pretend this never happened.
[33:20] I mean, you know, that's another thing that if you've got an implemented for on the service side of the
[33:24] house, something like call rail or you know, they're called analytics software, like they can give you,
[33:29] they can notify you when there's negative sentiment going on in service delivery as well as intake.
[33:36] Yeah, Hona case status to good job of that. They've talked about doing a promoter score in different
[33:44] phases of of a matter, et cetera. So there's lots of places that are like some of the data come back,
[33:49] but the ROI one, it's a hard one for me. Well, I think it's my issue with the ROI, especially in the
[33:58] PI contact, so we talk about all the time. Yeah, yeah, and it can still depend on your practice,
[34:07] you know, look, I think there are practice errors that it lends itself to, but again, the point that you always
[34:11] make is it's one thing to be optimizing to ROI. I think that's a mistake that I agree with you on that.
[34:18] I mean, ROI is, you know, it's going to be a function of the volume that you're trying to do,
[34:22] market share, you're trying to capture. And so as a point you've made many, many times,
[34:27] there are reasons to, especially if you're, you know, in a dominate the market phase,
[34:32] not to optimize to ROI because you're not going to be able to fill the volume needs that you want.
[34:38] And so I think there's good reasons not that it's not, it's not the right metric for everybody,
[34:45] but I think it's a good thing to have a finger on. If you're, you might, you might be intentionally
[34:50] being like, yeah, we're not trying to optimize ROI, but here's where we're at.
[34:54] Here's my, my, sorry, this is completely tangents. No, it's great. It will be interesting to see.
[35:01] And I do not believe this to be the case with one exception that fundamentally, different channels are
[35:07] really material, materially having a different ROI. The one exception that I have to that,
[35:15] because I feel that these calls for as part of my job for like a long, far too long,
[35:22] is the directories. And that's a user behavior thing. You get rejected by three law firms when you want,
[35:29] when you think you have a case, and so what do you do, you go and contact, find a place where you can
[35:35] find 10 lawyers who do whatever it is you might want to do, might, might need, and that is a directory,
[35:41] and you contact all 10 of them in played your case. And so the directories tend to have a higher
[35:48] propensity of garbage in from a prospect perspective, but other than that, like the variability in
[35:56] ROI across different marketing channels, paper click for his LSAs, especially in the digital world,
[36:01] I think is tough. I mean, it probably exists to some extent, but like, it's a tough.
[36:14] There it is. So many times I like 10 values, you know, you should like that, like, and or PI with a term,
[36:19] you know, the turnaround is so far, like just just this.
[36:21] Or refer to the live a question.
[36:28] The rules of the greatest, we did not have any questions kind of running out of time here.
[36:32] That's great. I was going to remind everybody to join us in Baltimore for a seated table.
[36:46] We talk about how it's going to be that much more difficult to hit target costs for clients,
[36:52] because of the investments that private equity making in the piece.
[36:57] Wow. That's a great, that's a great endorsement, dude.
[37:03] Yeah, no, come join us in Baltimore. That is May 6 and 7 at Camden Yards, which is the baseball field.
[37:12] See, we did this the other day. It is a baseball field in Baltimore.
[37:18] Yeah, we'll also be at Hillma Super Summit.
[37:23] Yeah, stop by. If you're going to be at Hillma, find us, GNI would love to answer your questions.
[37:27] You can be part of the pod to find us at at Poma.
[37:31] And yeah, those are those are the next two babies that we're going to be at, correct?
[37:36] That's right. Well, there's one more, Biggie.
[37:38] Who is speaking at Blanchard Legal Marketing Summit? Do we have any announcements to make?
[37:45] I thought maybe we did. Well, we could talk about John Hansen, because you reach out to us this morning.
[37:50] And John Hansen, I will tell you guys this, and I'm sure there are people who are not named John Hansen,
[37:55] who really understand this stuff, but I don't know who they are. John Hansen is the person who knows more about
[38:01] the regulatory environment of marketing on the web than anybody else.
[38:06] And I'm probably wrong about that, but we're going to have him speaking at the Lanchard Legal
[38:11] Marketing Summit. So be there, get tickets. It is mid-August in Nashville,
[38:18] Lanchardlittlemarking.com. We'll see you there.
[38:20] And I'm going to do one more plug for this talk.
[38:23] Go. The reason we talked about this on the pod. I don't know if that's this episode's published
[38:30] or not. So I apologize for scooping ourselves, but people think you don't compliance,
[38:38] tired, and it's boring, and all this stuff. Right now, there are law firms out there right now that are
[38:44] doubling down on this best law firm listicle thing. Basically paying their agency, whether they know
[38:51] it or not, to create all of these. This is the number one law firm, blah, blah, blah, they're not disclosing
[38:58] that it's paid for. They're not disclosing that it's made up by the agency. They're doing it at scale
[39:03] because someone in the GO World told them that these listicles will help them rank in. Sadly, right now,
[39:09] they do seem to play an outsized role. But as John will tell you, there's a lot of problems with that.
[39:15] So you got to come to the summit to learn why. Maybe we should serve popsicles and call them
[39:22] listicles at the summit. That's a great idea. That's a great John Hanswerke. If you would like to sponsor
[39:28] lunch out of the marketing summit, popsicles and call them listicle popsicles. That's amazing,
[39:33] genius. And that's right into the food, motif. Great marketing, they're Conrad.
[39:38] Alright, Conrad, well, great to see you, and I will talk to you next week.
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